Bama versus the HUNH offense

[Jamos]

I think most of us were in great anticipation of seeing what Bama would do with the HUNH offense that West Virginia would offer yesterday and I'm not so sure any of us came away from the game in great anticipation of seeing Bama play another team using that offense.

To me it seems that the defenses that Bama are running against the HUNH teams must be so complicated that the players get totally confused with their assignments and we all see a lot of blown coverages on the plays. I was scared to death yesterday every time their QB dropped back to pass and when the game was over and I looked at the stats I could see why. If they had not dropped some of those passes, their stats would have been much better and I'm sure Bama would be 0-1 today.

At first I wanted to blame Kirby Smart for not having the team ready after Bama had just be torn apart by Auburn and Oklahoma at the end of last season. I truly felt that the team would be much improved against the HUNH teams this year because of having all spring and summer to make the right adjustments or designs to do so.

 But before I go off on the coaches I have to maybe question the mental and physical capabilities of the players. I know these players are highly rated players coming out of high school, four and five star, and Bama has been the number one school in recruiting for the past few years. But my question is, are they just highly rated athletes because of what they can do physically or is the mental part ever considered? I realize that when recruiting kids out of high school, the recruiter doesn't have much help with their mental attributes other than what the coaches at the high school level tells them.

I'm starting to think that the defensive plan that Bama is using for the hurry up offenses may be too complicated for the players that Bama has right now. When CNS gives his post game remarks about the defense it usually is about players making mental mistakes on their pass coverages and occasionally he will mention something about missed tackles. Some of the problem could also be they have no way of practicing everyday for these offenses.

Who knows what the problems really are but there are definitely some problems. Hopefully there can be some good improvements before the next team with the hurry up offense because I think those teams are licking their chops for a shot at Bama right now.

This thread is not intended to ridicule or to create any animosities toward any of the coaches or players, it's just a conversation piece for all of us armchair coaches.

[McBaman]

I was thinking during the game that the HUNH just doesn't give our D time to signal in complex calls and get set, and that leads to confusion on the field.  For that reason alone IMHO the approach needs to be simplified.  If the players are confused they are not going to be "mentally free" to react to the play.

I don't see this as a question of mental toughness or mental ability, etc., but rather the D scheme just doesn't fit the time available to get ready for the next play.  Maybe we need to recruit D players who played against a lot of HUNH in high school.  At least they'd be used to the pace of such a game.

True, we can't replicate a HUNH offense in practice (although maybe more time should be spend getting the scout team to do this), but we can put a watch on the time between practice plays and measure whether or not the D is getting set fast enough.  Gotta believe some of this will be done in practice.

Only other observation is that I thought some of our LB looked too slow.  But maybe this was a result of confusion due to the pace of play.

[Catch Prothro]

I was thinking during the game that the HUNH just doesn't give our D time to signal in complex calls and get set, and that leads to confusion on the field.  For that reason alone IMHO the approach needs to be simplified.  If the players are confused they are not going to be "mentally free" to react to the play.

I don't see this as a question of mental toughness or mental ability, etc., but rather the D scheme just doesn't fit the time available to get ready for the next play.  Maybe we need to recruit D players who played against a lot of HUNH in high school.  At least they'd be used to the pace of such a game.

True, we can't replicate a HUNH offense in practice (although maybe more time should be spend getting the scout team to do this), but we can put a watch on the time between practice plays and measure whether or not the D is getting set fast enough.  Gotta believe some of this will be done in practice.

Only other observation is that I thought some of our LB looked too slow.  But maybe this was a result of confusion due to the pace of play.

I think you are right that the scheme needs to be simplified, not made more complex, in order to address the HUNH offenses.  LSU does a much better job than Bama, and MD's link provides a good analysis:  Click here for link

Unlike some, I do not and have not had any confidence in the approach Bama has taken in defending these offenses.  Bama has been lit up by virtually every team running a fast-paced offense, and it has been happening for years: Utah, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Auburn, WV...   even Georgia Southern outperformed all other teams against Bama in 2011.  Saban made a big production after the Utah game, even visiting with Stoops at OK to see how teams were defending these offenses, but still Bama merely tweaks its existing system, rather than addressing the fundamental problem of implementing a complex defensive scheme against a fast, simplified offense. 

I'm not chicken little, I don't see the sky falling merely because WV put up points against Bama.  And maybe with DePriest in the middle decision-making might take place faster.  But at some point the game is played on the field, not the sidelines.  Bama's defense requires someone on the field (like Rolando McClain) who knows what is going on and can get everyone in the right spot, get the assignments correct.  That gets harder to do as the tempo increases -- and as athletes leave early for the NFL, younger players are on the field.  Bama's defensive leaders frequently get praised not just for their athleticism, but also their "football smarts."  You don't hear that too often in college football, especially for defensive players at teams other than Bama.  So I think Saban does recruit players who can play in his system.

Auburn's offense thrives by running the same 5 base plays (only a slight exaggeration), with constant adjustments based on what the defense is doing.  Each play has about 4 options.  They disguise this by running these plays out of different alignments.  The plays are designed to attack space -- and the implementation depends on what a key player or two on defense does.  So the offense is built around finding the space that the D is giving, and naturally assumes a defensive player will be "out of position."

Saban has sought to counter this by trying to fill the space with more players, running a nickle or dime, having less players committed to the line of scrimmage, trying to disguise the space that the D is giving up.  It's really not a bad strategy -- leagues like the Big12 don't have defenses that stop the HUNH either, games turn into shoot-outs. 

But then what about LSU, which mostly shut down Oregon, and hasn't lost to Auburn or TAMU the past two years?  LSU doesn't recruit Rhodes Scholars, but talented athletes who can play in a simplified system that allows them to respond quickly to what is happening on the field.  That might be the best approach to defeating a fast offensive scheme.

[2Stater]

J, you are right. You could see the "deer caught in the headlights" look on the defensive players many times while they were looking to the sideline as the ball was being snapped. That just indicates a lack of preparation. I don't know what the answer is, but if you keep doing the same thing over and over, you are going to get the same results or worse. They simply aren't adapting to the HUNH offense.

[bama87]

The big problem yesterday was not having Depriest in the middle. There were 2 rookies playing inside and that was a big problem. We have been spoiled with CJ and Ro being the signal callers. The D showed their immaturity yesterday.

[Marshal Dillon]

I was thinking during the game that the HUNH just doesn't give our D time to signal in complex calls and get set, and that leads to confusion on the field.  For that reason alone IMHO the approach needs to be simplified.  If the players are confused they are not going to be "mentally free" to react to the play.

I don't see this as a question of mental toughness or mental ability, etc., but rather the D scheme just doesn't fit the time available to get ready for the next play.  Maybe we need to recruit D players who played against a lot of HUNH in high school.  At least they'd be used to the pace of such a game.

True, we can't replicate a HUNH offense in practice (although maybe more time should be spend getting the scout team to do this), but we can put a watch on the time between practice plays and measure whether or not the D is getting set fast enough.  Gotta believe some of this will be done in practice.

Only other observation is that I thought some of our LB looked too slow.  But maybe this was a result of confusion due to the pace of play.

I think you are right that the scheme needs to be simplified, not made more complex, in order to address the HUNH offenses.  LSU does a much better job than Bama, and MD's link provides a good analysis:  Click here for link

Unlike some, I do not and have not had any confidence in the approach Bama has taken in defending these offenses.  Bama has been lit up by virtually every team running a fast-paced offense, and it has been happening for years: Utah, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Auburn, WV...   even Georgia Southern outperformed all other teams against Bama in 2011.  Saban made a big production after the Utah game, even visiting with Stoops at OK to see how teams were defending these offenses, but still Bama merely tweaks its existing system, rather than addressing the fundamental problem of implementing a complex defensive scheme against a fast, simplified offense. 

I'm not chicken little, I don't see the sky falling merely because WV put up points against Bama.  And maybe with DePriest in the middle decision-making might take place faster.  But at some point the game is played on the field, not the sidelines.  Bama's defense requires someone on the field (like Rolando McClain) who knows what is going on and can get everyone in the right spot, get the assignments correct.  That gets harder to do as the tempo increases -- and as athletes leave early for the NFL, younger players are on the field.  Bama's defensive leaders frequently get praised not just for their athleticism, but also their "football smarts."  You don't hear that too often in college football, especially for defensive players at teams other than Bama.  So I think Saban does recruit players who can play in his system.

Auburn's offense thrives by running the same 5 base plays (only a slight exaggeration), with constant adjustments based on what the defense is doing.  Each play has about 4 options.  They disguise this by running these plays out of different alignments.  The plays are designed to attack space -- and the implementation depends on what a key player or two on defense does.  So the offense is built around finding the space that the D is giving, and naturally assumes a defensive player will be "out of position."

Saban has sought to counter this by trying to fill the space with more players, running a nickle or dime, having less players committed to the line of scrimmage, trying to disguise the space that the D is giving up.  It's really not a bad strategy -- leagues like the Big12 don't have defenses that stop the HUNH either, games turn into shoot-outs. 

But then what about LSU, which mostly shut down Oregon, and hasn't lost to Auburn or TAMU the past two years?  LSU doesn't recruit Rhodes Scholars, but talented athletes who can play in a simplified system that allows them to respond quickly to what is happening on the field.  That might be the best approach to defeating a fast offensive scheme.

Outstanding observations. I think you have nailed it. While we play complex & difficult defense, the HUNH relies on simple concepts and using speed to prevent the sidelines from sending in info about the D alignment. LSU totally shut down Manziel and A&M, but we struggled mightily both times against him. Same goes for Auburn, LSU shut them down, mainly with a pass rush and speed on the corners.


 

[XBAMA]

Re: Bama versus the HUNh offense = we are as close to screwed as we can get ?


 

[Jamos]

J, you are right. You could see the "deer caught in the headlights" look on the defensive players many times while they were looking to the sideline as the ball was being snapped. That just indicates a lack of preparation. I don't know what the answer is, but if you keep doing the same thing over and over, you are going to get the same results or worse. They simply aren't adapting to the HUNH offense.

This is what I think creates the most indecision for the players. Kirby is waiting until the offense is set and then calling in his defense. This really minimizes the thought process for the players to shift or whatever. If the offense goes on a quick count, they have a big advantage over the defense as far as them being set and knowing what to do. I think that Bama's opponents are feeding off of this or it seems that way.

[Marshal Dillon]

J, you are right. You could see the "deer caught in the headlights" look on the defensive players many times while they were looking to the sideline as the ball was being snapped. That just indicates a lack of preparation. I don't know what the answer is, but if you keep doing the same thing over and over, you are going to get the same results or worse. They simply aren't adapting to the HUNH offense.

This is what I think creates the most indecision for the players. Kirby is waiting until the offense is set and then calling in his defense. This really minimizes the thought process for the players to shift or whatever. If the offense goes on a quick count, they have a big advantage over the defense as far as them being set and knowing what to do. I think that Bama's opponents are feeding off of this or it seems that way.

Good observation and ideas. They have found a way to exploit our defensive signals, which means the players are going to have to act more instinctively, like the way LSU does with its more simple defensive scheme. We're playing chess and LSU is laying checkers.

[BillBrosky]

Didn't read the thread, just the first couple of para's by the OP.  But this has been going on since the UTES.  CNS has yet to find the answer.  Imma greatly dissapoint. 

[McBaman]

So...guys...if we can figure this out, why can the coaches?? 

I mean...really...I WANT to believe the coaches are a lot smarter about this stuff than I am.

[Marshal Dillon]

So...guys...if we can figure this out, why can the coaches?? 

I mean...really...I WANT to believe the coaches are a lot smarter about this stuff than I am.

Something fans tend to forget about coaches is that they are HUMAN. Yes, Nick Saban is a human being like the rest of us (hope I don't get banned for saying that). Humans can be stubborn, resist change, ignore the obvious, and stick with what they know & feel comfortable with. Coach Bryant had the same problem in the late 1960's and he had to change and he did.


 

[td57]

So...guys...if we can figure this out, why can the coaches?? 

I mean...really...I WANT to believe the coaches are a lot smarter about this stuff than I am.

Something fans tend to forget about coaches is that they are HUMAN. Yes, Nick Saban is a human being like the rest of us (hope I don't get banned for saying that). Humans can be stubborn, resist change, ignore the obvious, and stick with what they know & feel comfortable with. Coach Bryant had the same problem in the late 1960's and he had to change and he did.


 

This is exactly what has me concerned. I just knew CNS and Kerby was spending the off season coming up with the answer to the HUNH, like they did with CUM and Tebow.
Now, I'm really afraid CNS is in some sort of denial that he has trouble with the HUNH. A few interviews he's done makes it sound like the HUNH is beneath him.

 

[ALTideUp]

A quality thread boys. And pleased to see BB back here.

The complex pro style defensive schemes that we favor really put the offense of defense, they have to respond to us, change calls at the line etc. This HUNH thing completely neutralizes that strength of our defense. It doesn't matter if we are smarter, trickier, more disciplined, etc. I think it requires some sort of basic zone responsibility assignments at the first two levels. I think we can handle that part. But it also seems to necessitate man to man coverage by the corners. Here is where we are in deep trouble, pardon the pun.

[2Stater]

A quality thread boys. And pleased to see BB back here.

The complex pro style defensive schemes that we favor really put the offense of defense, they have to respond to us, change calls at the line etc. This HUNH thing completely neutralizes that strength of our defense. It doesn't matter if we are smarter, trickier, more disciplined, etc. I think it requires some sort of basic zone responsibility assignments at the first two levels. I think we can handle that part. But it also seems to necessitate man to man coverage by the corners. Here is where we are in deep trouble, pardon the pun.

You are correct, sir. Look to see TB and MH with increased PT.

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