A way to solve the lineman downfield problem?

[hscoach]

Click here for link

[McBaman]

Well something needs to be done.  We had two of these plays on Sat and I'll bet there will be more to come.  Hopefully that will increase the calls for some rules changes in the off-season.  Meanwhile, best solution for now is to keep harping on lax enforcement with league offices.

[hscoach]

I forgot who I talked about it with, it may have been here.  A question, why is a person off sides without his full body being over the line, a football just has to  break the goal line plane, not go all the way over, but a QB and have a toe behind the line and it be a legal pass?

[Jamos]

I forgot who I talked about it with, it may have been here.  A question, why is a person off sides without his full body being over the line, a football just has to  break the goal line plane, not go all the way over, but a QB and have a toe behind the line and it be a legal pass?

This is exactly my argument, I have never in my years heard of a rule such as this in football. If a player lines up and just breaks the line of scrimmage with anything and the ball is snapped, he is considered off sides and penalized. So why does anything that the action of a play after the ball is snapped change the definition of what the line of scrimmage represents.

[ricky023]

Is this not at the discretion of the Ref. calling the play? RTR!

[Catch Prothro]

I forgot who I talked about it with, it may have been here.  A question, why is a person off sides without his full body being over the line, a football just has to  break the goal line plane, not go all the way over, but a QB and have a toe behind the line and it be a legal pass?

This is exactly my argument, I have never in my years heard of a rule such as this in football. If a player lines up and just breaks the line of scrimmage with anything and the ball is snapped, he is considered off sides and penalized. So why does anything that the action of a play after the ball is snapped change the definition of what the line of scrimmage represents.

I agree the rule is logically inconsistent with other rules. 

Here's an example.  Fourth and maybe one inch.  QB running towards the line of scrimmage.  Ball in QB's hand is actually past the first down marker.  So by "forward progress rule" if play stops here, it is a first down.  But QB releases football, incomplete pass, turn over on downs.  Alternatively, QB attempts to release football but is tackled and refs rule that QB was down before the "pass," so it is a first down. 

The rule should be that the football should be released before the QB steps across the line.

[McBaman]

But C.P. -- How do you define "before the QB 'steps' across the line?"  I say BOTH feet have to be BEHIND the line, whether on the ground or in the air when the ball is RELEASED.  If QB throws a jump pass, he still has to keep both feet behind the line.

If his feet are behind the line when the ball is released (NOT when his arm STARTS moving forward), likely the trunk of his body is also.

Just MHO.

[N.AL-Tider]

I forgot who I talked about it with, it may have been here.  A question, why is a person off sides without his full body being over the line, a football just has to  break the goal line plane, not go all the way over, but a QB and have a toe behind the line and it be a legal pass?

This is exactly my argument, I have never in my years heard of a rule such as this in football. If a player lines up and just breaks the line of scrimmage with anything and the ball is snapped, he is considered off sides and penalized. So why does anything that the action of a play after the ball is snapped change the definition of what the line of scrimmage represents.

I agree the rule is logically inconsistent with other rules. 

Here's an example.  Fourth and maybe one inch.  QB running towards the line of scrimmage.  Ball in QB's hand is actually past the first down marker.  So by "forward progress rule" if play stops here, it is a first down.  But QB releases football, incomplete pass, turn over on downs.  Alternatively, QB attempts to release football but is tackled and refs rule that QB was down before the "pass," so it is a first down. 

The rule should be that the football should be released before the QB steps across the line.

Good points.  I also don't understand the issue of scoring a TD when the ball crosses the plane but...a ball carrier can run the entire length of the field with the ball in one hand hung out over the sideline but as long as he doesn't touch the white on the sideline then he is still advancing the LOS...but, if he does step out of bounds they mark where the ball actually was (as best they can determine) instead of where his foot touched outside of the field of play...

[McBaman]

FWIW...SEC is looking at refs responsibilities on plays like this one:

Click here for link


For goodness sake, you'd think with eight refs they could catch stuff like this.

[N.AL-Tider]

FWIW...SEC is looking at refs responsibilities on plays like this one:

Click here for link


For goodness sake, you'd think with eight refs they could catch stuff like this.

Good link. Thanks.  It also seems to me that they could/maybe should create a rule that would allow coaches to challenge plays like the one that cost us last week.  If a coach thinks an OLman was down field on a pass play he could challenge.  If after review it shows that he was right then the penalty could then be enforced.  If the coach loses the challenge then he loses a timeout as well... Thoughts?

[Catch Prothro]

I forgot who I talked about it with, it may have been here.  A question, why is a person off sides without his full body being over the line, a football just has to  break the goal line plane, not go all the way over, but a QB and have a toe behind the line and it be a legal pass?

This is exactly my argument, I have never in my years heard of a rule such as this in football. If a player lines up and just breaks the line of scrimmage with anything and the ball is snapped, he is considered off sides and penalized. So why does anything that the action of a play after the ball is snapped change the definition of what the line of scrimmage represents.

I agree the rule is logically inconsistent with other rules. 

Here's an example.  Fourth and maybe one inch.  QB running towards the line of scrimmage.  Ball in QB's hand is actually past the first down marker.  So by "forward progress rule" if play stops here, it is a first down.  But QB releases football, incomplete pass, turn over on downs.  Alternatively, QB attempts to release football but is tackled and refs rule that QB was down before the "pass," so it is a first down. 

The rule should be that the football should be released before the QB steps across the line.

Good points.  I also don't understand the issue of scoring a TD when the ball crosses the plane but...a ball carrier can run the entire length of the field with the ball in one hand hung out over the sideline but as long as he doesn't touch the white on the sideline then he is still advancing the LOS...but, if he does step out of bounds they mark where the ball actually was (as best they can determine) instead of where his foot touched outside of the field of play...

The position of the ball seems to be key, however feet are used for OOB determinations.  I thought to make it possible to implement, the rule would have to focus on the QB's feet, and not the position of the football, when the throw was completed.  Like McB, feet should be behind the LOS. 

I might like using your TD example even better than my first down hypo.  If the QB releases the ball, with body and ball across the goal line and it falls incomplete, is it a TD? 

[Jamos]

Why can't there be a rule that the coaches can challenge these no calls by the officials with the risk of losing a time out? The coaches would have to declare what they are challenging.

[Chechem]

I forgot who I talked about it with, it may have been here.  A question, why is a person off sides without his full body being over the line, a football just has to  break the goal line plane, not go all the way over, but a QB and have a toe behind the line and it be a legal pass?

...

...

...

The position of the ball seems to be key, however feet are used for OOB determinations.  I thought to make it possible to implement, the rule would have to focus on the QB's feet, and not the position of the football, when the throw was completed.  Like McB, feet should be behind the LOS. 

I might like using your TD example even better than my first down hypo.  If the QB releases the ball, with body and ball across the goal line and it falls incomplete, is it a TD? 

I've never understood the inconsistency of the such rules.  The ball must cross the goal for a TD, but a ball can be OOB by 2 yards and a player considered in bounds (IB) if his feet are still IB.  Now this stupid rule about crossing the line of scrimmage for a pass.  Basketball solved this by changing the rule on "backcourt determination" a few years ago.  Football needs to change too.

 

[BAMADCHAMPSHIPS]

I forgot who I talked about it with, it may have been here.  A question, why is a person off sides without his full body being over the line, a football just has to  break the goal line plane, not go all the way over, but a QB and have a toe behind the line and it be a legal pass?

...

...

...

The position of the ball seems to be key, however feet are used for OOB determinations.  I thought to make it possible to implement, the rule would have to focus on the QB's feet, and not the position of the football, when the throw was completed.  Like McB, feet should be behind the LOS. 

I might like using your TD example even better than my first down hypo.  If the QB releases the ball, with body and ball across the goal line and it falls incomplete, is it a TD? 

I've never understood the inconsistency of the such rules.  The ball must cross the goal for a TD, but a ball can be OOB by 2 yards and a player considered in bounds (IB) if his feet are still IB.  Now this stupid rule about crossing the line of scrimmage for a pass.  Basketball solved this by changing the rule on "backcourt determination" a few years ago.  Football needs to change too.

 

This one has puzzled me. If a receiver catches the ball on the sidelines/endzone lands on his toes but is heels land out of bounds it's/was a no catch but if he drags the toe it's a catch.
Can't remember if it was a college or an NFL game but I was baffled by the referee's explanation.

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